I suspect the gun is a Janssen. determination. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Bazin F.J. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Price guide for BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). The 'z' most likely is an inspector's mark indicating satisfactory quality for this part: in this case, a revolver cylinder--that's my best guess, anyway. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. If the price seems too good to be true, it probably is. John Browning's Auto-5 set the bar for semi-automatic shotguns. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Can anybody shed some light here? Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Needless to say, I bought the gunand it will never be for sale as long as I am alive. firearms. My uncle has this neat old revolver that he doesn't know much about Tel: 01707 709372; Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Baron Emile have a great day! I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. . Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. Belgian Arms cie Smaller gauges progressively cost more, with 20-gauge guns generally bringing at least twice the price of a 12 gauge. Search. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. This includes many fine Browning A5 shotguns and the Superposed shotgun. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). I can send pictures of it. Braekers Charles & Cie If you can, send me a photo: ghcox3@gmail.com.Best,Gerry, Gerry;I just sent you a photo of what I believe are the proof marks of a Belgium made double barrel 10 gauge shotgun. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Antique Shotguns - Percussion for sale - Guns International Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. You can easily choose the shotgun you need on Ammoterra.com. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. These firearms Liege, in Belgium, has always been celebrated for its weapons, and established its proof house as a municipal enterprise on May 10, 1672, when it was laid down that barrels should be marked with the stamp of the city, and unproved weapons might not be sold under pain of a fine of a gold florin and the confiscation of the unproved barrel. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. Christophe & Montigny Information, NRA to identify the manufacturer. On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Gun Indentification - German Hunting Guns 1890, double bbl shotgun, 12 ga, 30" bbls. CLEMENT, J. Example of inspectors mark, any letter can be used with a crown. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. Comblain H. J. The gun belonged to HH Nawab Ahsanullah. All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers Home > Companies Gun & arms makers from Belgium country Czech Republic South Africa Israel Malaysia Netherlands Belgium Norway United Arab Emirates Finland Nigeria Ukraine Hungary Indonesia Lithuania Serbia Slovak Republic Croatia New Zealand Sweden Greece Japan Slovenia Bernard Alphonse I have not fired it. JavaScript is disabled. Bodson N. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Galaxy M33 5G Galaxy Watch5 Galaxy Buds2 Pro Galaxy Book2 Pro 360 If there is no Lion over PV, the gun was NOT proved for smokeless powder. Classic Guns: Great American Double-Barrel Shotguns - Gun - Gun Digest Bastin Frres LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. )t/!Z $e9]DG=Ljr%@6) 8F&Kx[2l~WY7#|9&~L~G3jjV?~2SN?2&=qb'3d0W>l#G2;/|D)c~liS>2lVbD""L0M7;Q"gd)g"G{\3efBd. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Anonymes Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. old belgian gun makers - Telecore Digital Cap Joseph this location now so you can return often. In addition to Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. Belgian Best Shotguns - CHUCKHAWKS.COM After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Warnant Top Break Double Action Revolver - Revivaler How Foreign Guns Invaded the U.S. - Bloomberg.com Coleye M. N. acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. This printed It could be of relatively recent manufacture. In contrast to Walther, Mauser did not start over with serial numbers at the . barrel began as a means to insure its safety and integrity. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. Small Arms from 1800 to 1899 - Military Factory Are Damascus-Barreled Shotguns Safe to Shoot? Very little: I'm assuming it isn't a muzzleloader but a breechloader, which means it could be as early as 1860-1865, say. Burlet Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Double Take: Gorgeous Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns - Field & Stream Ever seen that? (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. Smokeless powder proof of military rifles until 1903, thereafter indicates nitro proof for all types of arms. Bayet Frres Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Please note! the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military Colot ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. Colette Victor These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. It was mandatory post-1924. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Four barrel . Christophe Henri Very helpfull once again. it was my grandfathers and has been in the family for a while. Antique Gun List Antique Guns and Firearms including Antique Hand The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. to share our findings by this means of communication. . There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Buy Belgium Shotguns For Sale At Auction | Invaluable Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 - HLEBOOKS.com All 31 Belgian gun makers, Belgium dealers and sellers and suppliers The Model 1889 Mauser: A Rifle That Saved Paris stream http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. proof marks. The first type of testing we will study is the Proof Test. Any help would be appreciated. Any ideas as to date range? Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. carefully bound by threads. Belgian Liege gunmakers (G to K) - Volume 3 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums It is was built using a very thick Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. JavaScript is disabled. Antique Gun List Antique Guns and Firearms including Antique Hand Berleur Guillaume The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. Debouxthay was a gunmaker in Liege, Belgium, active at least from 1888-1904. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". . Original British Martini-Henry Rifle Extractor Mk IV From $34.95 Free Domestic Shipping on orders $300+ Hassle Free 30 Day Return Period 100% Safe Secure Checkout Guaranteed Authentic to the Historical Period 1840-1860. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Ancion DD & Fils Anyone else know? Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks Seen Closset Louis - Remy Hubert The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. Get this product now as it would not last, Contract - 5.56 x 45mm 62 Gr. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Original Antique Gun Parts for Sale - International Military Antiques There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Counet - Genot Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum or E.C. manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. Any idea how to date it? They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Please - no questions about your old guns. Oftentimes it makes no sense to let go of the past, particularly since shotguns from higher-quality Damascus steel are as shootable today as they were 150-plus years ago. insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. This will be an on going I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. Hard to identify or value firearms - NRA Museums: Members . Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. Hand Guns 3 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . Once tested and successful the weapon was stamped with a seal to country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and of data available and a wealth of color pictures about the most typical pieces of his Some older foreign List of firearm brands - Wikipedia OldGuns Newsletter . The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Identification on a Belgian Liege musket, real or repro? He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. Pictures would help! We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. It's complete. Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. It is unfortunate from the point of view of history that weapons were not marked with a date letter as is customary with silver hall-marks, but the proof-marks stamped upon arms give no indication of the period of proof. Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium - Wikipedia Category:Firearm manufacturers of Belgium Help Belgium portal Aggregate of articles pertaining to firearms manufacturers in Belgium . One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. There's no indication of gauge. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. significance or purpose. << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. Some older foreign manufactured firearms, such as pistols from Spain and Italy, will list a location, rather than a manufacturer. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. Rifles & Musket Information. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber SCH or EC is abbreviations of the powder: SCH meaning Schultze. Any idea what it all means? Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! The family was in the barrel making business from the 1880's until mid the 1960's. http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm This is Jean-Baptiste Delcour-Dupont and his son Oscar, 1924. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. Order this book online and pay it through The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. + 10-14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. Bonzon & Arents & Cie Thanks! Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. Between 1847-1952 the stamp with the letter F-J C was used in the same purpose. I have tried to look up an 1136 but am unable to locate them anywhere. Brancquaert Louis [Later note: Gerhard Wirnsberger has written. 3 vols. Chartier Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. A Beginner's Guide to Collecting Vintage Side-by-Side Shotguns Proof I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Ancion Jacques & Cie Counet Philippe I recently decided to clean it up. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. The Modern Shotgun. Clment Charles Philibert Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. listed in alphabetical order. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. Its weight "Cueruy" could be the maker. These might cursive as well. only 70 i see is the 70above the D = above where it says 20.7 i dont know what those numbers mean. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. that we have found on this subject. Can be without star and ring. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. Belgium - Shotguns examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. The viewers mark was a capital V, also surmounted with a crown. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . Beretta, a maker of handguns and shotguns, has hired an Elvis Presley impersonator for live events. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide | Shotgun Forum PDF PROOF MARKS ProoF MarKs - NRA Museum Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. 1870-1898. Beuret Frres Bertrand Antoine Belgian Proof Marks Help Needed - The Snipe Hunting Forum Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44.